<mindlace> <RikH> Amos, how are we going to integrate the tutorial with a quickstart
<Amos> The quickstart as it is needs to go.
<Amos> We need to replace it with more up to date examples
<Amos> I think the examples in the tutorial would be a good choice
<Amos> however, we may need a little tweeking on the tutorial infrastructure to make this work well
<Amos> for example, everytime you want to use the tutorial, you need to get a fresh batch of examples
<Amos> so just including the tutorial examples as default content is not sufficient
<Michel> The quickstart itself is just a good launch point, really we need to take better advantage of that, it's prime real-estate.
<Amos> so in summary i don't have the answer, but I definitely see a lot of overlap between the tutorial and
<Amos> quickstart.
<Amos> done
<mindlace> <ChrisW> Could Amos briefly outline what is to replace the otudated ZCMG, ZDG and ZAG?
<Michel> that was easy, ok let's all go to bed.
<Michel> I'll take this one...
<Michel> What we want to do is merge the official Zope docs, the 'Guides', with the Zope book being published by O'Reilly.
<Michel> None of this is official, BTW, we haven't worked all the kinks out of it.
<Michel> The goals of the guides and the goals of the book line up very well. When you take our revised outline that came out of the recent training material
<Michel> and put it next to the book outline they match up really well.
<Michel> We think it would be a waste of effort for me to write the book and then for amos and I to write the guides when they are largely the same content.
<Michel> We're pretty excited about this, and we hope that it works out but we haven't yet heard back from O'Reilly, so stay tuned.
<Michel> done.
<mindlace> From RikH & Aquarius: any thoughts about the integration of Zope documentation (in one place?) / how do we combine all this content into a manageable beast?
<Amos> This is a difficult question.
<Amos> In general I'm happy to let the ZDP take the lead on this ;-)
<Amos> I would like to see all zope documentation in one place too.
<Amos> In general, ZDP seems like the right place to me.
<Amos> I would like to work more closely with ZDP folks to make sure that if they want this to happen that we
<Amos> give them all the support they need to make it work.
<Amos> done, I guess
<mindlace> <Maik> How are people going to be able to contribute to [ Digital Creation's -m] documentation, and how is the credit going to be given ?
<Amos> Again, this is a great question.
<Amos> Everything that will ship with the online help system (help screen content, tutorial, api docs, refs)
<Amos> will be in CVS in an easy to edit format--so we can accept patches.
<Amos> We can also build more complex front-ends to these simple facilities - a la cvsweb
<Amos> As for the guides replacement, that isn't worked out yet because we still don't know if we'll be able\
<Amos> to use the O'Reilly Book or not.
<Amos> In any event, the plan is to make all official docs available in CVS in an open format so that folks can
<Amos> contribute to the official docs in the same way they contribute to the source code.
<Amos> As for crediting folks, we currently have a Zope credits, but I don't think that is sufficient for docs credit.
<Amos> If folks contribute to official docs, their names should probably be attached to the actual pages they contribute to.
<Amos> I don't have the mechanics for this worked out yet, and am definitely open to suggestions.
<Amos> done
<mindlace> <Dracvl> As a newbie I would like to propose that there should be a How-to on every submitted product - included with the product. Step-by-step instructions are better than API docs for beginners, and one of the things I remember from my early days was frustration over how many of the products lacked proper How-tos. Thoughts? How about making it kind of compulsory, � la javadocs?
<Michel> there's a few issues here...
<Michel> The new online help system is a big help here
<Michel> The system allows you to provide screen by screen context sensitve help, so this removes much of the need for
<Michel> seperate docs with products.
<Michel> The help system also has a facility for providing API docs for your objects, sort of like 'interface defintions', although that's not the hard and fast rule
<Michel> step by step instructions is more like a tutorial format, and how third party products can extend the existing tutorial is not defined, althouh we happily accept contributions to the tutorial about core Zope concepts.
<Michel> the compulsory aspect is a hard issue, we don't want to make anyone do anything. ;)
<Michel> we certainly encourage it, and we can also set a good example, which we try and do in 2.2 by providing good help on all the standard screens. Keep in mind that some of this work is being done by a fellow ZDPer Stephan Richter
<Michel> done
<mindlace> <faassen> what's the status on using (simplified) DocBook? (where is it used in the documentation currently?) Also, any thoughts on the DocBookDocument product in this respect?
<Amos> Frankly, I'm having second thoughts about DocBook
<Amos> It's a complex format.
<Amos> Initially we proposed a two step system whereby you edit docs in XML and then render the results into HTML and then check the HTML into CVS
<Amos> This has proved cumbersome, folks want to walk up the the docs they need to change, change them and then check them back into CVS
<mindlace> (for my later summary, aquarius also mentioned docbooks)
<Amos> So for simple docs we're now favoring structured-text - its easy to edit and is well supported by the online help system
<Michel> Also docbook is totally unaproachable by many people and there are few free tools that grok it. It's distracting to look at all those tags...
<Amos> for more complex docs such as the guides replacement the format is still an open issues and I would not rule out docbook at this point.
<Amos> finally, your XMLWidgets stuff is very cool, especially in conjunction to the DocBook stuff.
<mindlace> Aquarius also suggests that we look at http://www.conglomerate.org regarding a structured doc format.
<Amos> It could end up being a very good solution for online editing of textured content.
<Amos> Right now I'm tring to focus our limited energies on creating quality content in the simpliest way possible
<Amos> For this reason I am hesitent to devote a lot of resources to trying to create complex doc formats and tools
<Michel> We strongly want to encourage other people to write docs, especially those of us at DC. Really the simplest way to do this is structured text, you will never catch Jim, for example, writing directly in XML. ;)
<Amos> done
<mindlace> ChrisW> As a maintainer of python products, hwo am I supposed to find out how things like __ac_permissions__ and otehr voodoo work? where will this be documented?
<Michel> The long range answer is that this will be defined in the API docs that come with the help system.
<Michel> The short range answer is a bit more complex, currently the secuirty API (which __ac_permissions__ belongs to) is in the process of being documented on the interfaces wiki
<Michel> the source is also helpful
<Michel> also, programmer docs are very important, but a higher priority for us at this point is user level docs.
<Michel> also, the training slides we released today have some good information on where the whole 'outline' of docs is going.
<Michel> http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/Projects/Interfaces/Security
<Michel> this is an example of where API docs will be when it's all done and finished
<Michel> done.
<mindlace> <RikH> If there is (ever) gonna be a [ZDP] ZBook, would we have to cover any documentation that you (=DC) will not? Are there any plans for what DC documentaition is going to cover?
<Amos> Yes.
<Amos> Later this week we should make public a wiki that describes all our doc efforts and what we are going to cover - refs, tutorial, revamped guides
<Amos> I agree that it's very important for DC to describe our responsibities so that folks know what docs to expect from us
<Amos> and what they should feel empowered to strike out on, on their own.
<Amos> So briefly I see DC's priorities firstly as providing the tutorial, and the references - API docs, and DTML refs, etc.
<Amos> Between these two poles is a vast area that the new Guides will partially cover, but there is a lot of room for community docs
<Amos> especially example oriented docs.
<Amos> done
<mindlace> Ok, the moderated portion is almost over, one question left:
<mindlace> <aquarius> Now, we all know that the mailing lists is one of the largest goldmines of collective knowledge of Zope. Do you think it would be possible for us to come up with a process of "mining" the mail-lists to extract all this gold?
<Michel> searchable mail list!
<mindlace> If I may take of the moderator hat for a second
<Michel> yeehaa...this isn't too hard, it just takes time for us to do it, in fact, it's not really high on our list because we are mandated to create new content.
<mindlace> I would say that allowing zope-*@ messages to filter into zope.org is high on my personal priority list
<Michel> This can be done probably rather easily with ZCAtalog and some procmail scripts, in fact, this would be an excellent project for the ZDP or some other community group to do.
<Michel> hmm.. yes, searchability is important, it would be nice and very ego-centric of me for example to be able to search for all the message that I wrote about ZCAtalog (gads there must be thousands...)
<Michel> done.
<mindlace> ok, open channel time!
--- mindlace sets mode -m
<RikH> There has been much talk about integrating Wikis and whatever. Is there any status on this (apart from the wikis?
<RikH> whatever = maillists, interactive messages
<ChrisW> Okay, please remember the searchable thing has been done already ;-)
<Michel> integrating how? in the docs?
<faassen> oh, open channel.
<Michel> ChrisW, based on ZCatalog?
<RikH> Michel: yes, whereever
<Dracvl> Wiki's are very confusing, are there any plans on improving the usability and readability? (again from the newbie point of view - I "get" them now, but they were confusing at first - lots of links leading to the same doc etc)
<Amos> I don't follow wiki development too closely, but wikis seem to be growing new features all the time
<ChrisW> Not yet, the mail into Zope thing is the bottleneck, and NIp is going to fix that within the next month
<zopebee> ChrisW you might find two future beehive tutorials helpful in regarding ac_permissions and products
<faassen> it would be nice if I could do this.
<faassen> I notice RikH post something that I think should be on the wiki.
<ChrisW> will these eb 'DC official' so I don't haev to redo everything in 2 months time?
<faassen> I quote the relevant portions.
<tconnect> Searchable mail lists at zope.nipltd.com is a grand effort - does about 90% of what I need
<faassen> reply to the list with it, saying something like:
<aquarius> zopebee: what new tutorials do you have planned?
<Michel> Chris will what be dc official?
<faassen> #wiki:zope-ZDP:RickHoekstraPage
--- Michel sets ban on *!*faassen@*.ibb.uu.nl
<-- Michel has kicked faassen from #zope (ADveRtisiNg is NOT allowed on #zope ( 5 minute ban ) cCc-��t V� 7.0 AdvertiSinG KicK)
<Michel> doh!
<zopebee> next week you'll see the release of the english translation of User, Roles and Permissions
<Dracvl> You missed :)
<aquarius> hehe
<Michel> shit how do i unban him?
--- Michel removes ban on *!*faassen@*.ibb.uu.nl
--- mindlace removes channel operator status from Amos
<zopebee> approximately two weeks later we'll release a tutorial (first in german) about programming zope products and permissions
<RikH> And I didn't even know there was such a page?
--- mindlace removes channel operator status from Michel
<zopebee> etc
<aquarius> cool
<Amos> as for new tutorials I think the current lessons are pretty decent - I'd like to see more that cover more advanced DTML, more app design, and more SQL methods stuff.
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<ZifNab> zopebee, any change in the speed of translation? Mind a little help?
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<faassen> phew..
<faassen> advertising, hm? :)
<Michel> ok, deop me.
<Michel> my client is too smart.
<Michel> for my own good...
<soulstompp> has anyone here successfully set up site root with apache?
<aquarius> Amos: how about a tutorial that takes the user from start to finish on a complex site?
<faassen> anyway, what I was saying..
<Dracvl> Michel: already done :)
<zopebee> well we have learned one lesson (and i'm sure this will make all dc folks smile) good documentation takes a lot of time
<ChrisW> Yes Soulstomp...
<Dracvl> soulstompp: we have
<faassen> a special code that I can enclose mail messages with.
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<faassen> saying something like:
<faassen> wiki:foobar-wiki:foopage
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<faassen> and the doc will automatically get added to taht page (or the page is created)
<faassen> it'll automatically take care of removing any > quoting, etc.
<mindlace> ChrisW, I want to help you with the email thing & get it integrated into zope.org
<Amos> tutorial - yes it covers building parts of sites, but the examples don't all work together to create one complete site - this sounds like a good idea for the quickstart replacement
<Michel> fassen: I think this is generally a issue of categoraization, assuming a wiki on the back end is not really necesary
<aquarius> Amos: I'm willing to help with that
<mindlace> Here's a challenge I see: I hear Amos saying "zdp should do it's thing" and "DC will do X docs", and the reality is that zope.org does a lot of community documentation already. Where's the line?
<soulstompp> what did you put in the form for site root
<zopebee> zifnab -- we *are* looking for writers!
<RikH> MIchel: no but the point is the discussion is getting de-focused with maillists and wikis (and what not) going on
<ZifNab> yes, this would definately improve quickstart. Show all the things Zope can do, but in a way that the end-result is a nice webpage
<Amos> aquarius: great, let's talk about this more later my email is [email protected]
<aquarius> Micheal: what ever happened to the OPL for the Zope book; you said the text would be available for review
<soulstompp> I think that I have the proxy pass in httpd.conf
<faassen> Michel: the neat part about having a wiki backend is that it'll automatically be wiki-editable and wiki-discussable, which is good if someone posts something particularly brilliant on the list. I just reply and say: wiki THIS: and it'll be wiki-ized.
<soulstompp> set up properly
<Michel> aquarius: yes, I'm as frustrated about that as you, the contract says OPL but O'Reilly wants to edit everything before it goes public.
<ChrisW> Ah, crap :(
<Michel> aquarius: this is a pretty tight bottleneck
<Amos> mindlace: good point, I don't know where ZOpe.org/ZDP line should be drawn - these are hard issues that involve many problems both technologicial and social
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<aquarius> mums the word..?
<Michel> aquarius: we want to remove that and be able to post content directly.
<ZifNab> At the moment, I'm not really sure if the wiki-thing will get rid of the brilliance
<ChrisW> michel: what bottleneck ya discussing?
<zopebee> something that we at beehive would really like to see (and would be willing to contribute heavily to) is ZDP documentation on fine tuning zope sites for speed.
<aquarius> oh
<RikH> mindlace: the important point is that we keep in contact
<Michel> Chris: O'Reilly wants to edit all content on the book before it is released under an open license.
<ChrisW> michel: so it won't be CVS'ed then?
<ChrisW> michel: Won't it go out of date REALLY quickly?
<Michel> Chris: well, if it's the guide replacement yes.
<RikH> zopebee: so set something up on the site
<Michel> Chris: it will bein CVS so we can work on it concurrently
<Michel> Chris: in terms of it going out of date fast, we will try to avoid that as much as possible, obviusly the online verison will contine to grow past the first printing of the book.
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<Amos> By choosing an open format and putting docs in CVS and encouraging a mentality of "you change the code, you change the docs" I hope we can work towards docs that stay fresh
<ChrisW> Can I try summing up what's going to be around:
<ChrisW> Zope Book (guides)
<aquarius> I think a MAJOR issue that needs to be indentified is a good learning path for the new zope (average) user - what to learn first, second, etc. Then we can make sure this information is there. For instance, new users need to understand many DTML topics - Namespaces, REQUEST, RESPONSE, Aquisition, etc. These core concepts could be well-documented as components, then integrated into other docs and updated as necessary
<ChrisW> API stuff in Help System (referencfes)
<Michel> aquarius: this is covered a lot by the tutorial in 2.2
<Michel> ChrisW: we'll be posting a wiki this week with the whole enchelada described there.
<ChrisW> Cool
<faassen> hm..
<faassen> speaking about the wikis.
<faassen> well, hm.
<faassen> there's really a proliferation of wikis.
<Michel> yeah, there is.
<Amos> ChrisW: Guide replacement, API Docs, Tutorial, and other Refs including DTML
<ChrisW> <rant>I just want to know how to use the f-ing catalog properyl and find otu how I'm supposed to do secuirty... </rant>
<RikH> aquarius: apart from this ZDP is writing a more theoretical intro on these points (working title: Quickstart). Contributions taken
<aquarius> ok
<faassen> and I know people are working on keeping track of them, but perhaps the 'bigger wiki' (organized into several sub departments) works better?
<Amos> RikH: cool!
<ChrisW> faassen: them? what's that?
<Michel> fassen: many of the wikis are not meant to be permenant, like the Inerfaces wiki is meant to turn into the API refs, after they are complete, the wiki will probably go away.
<faassen> ChrisW: I mean, all those wikis.
<Dracvl> ChrisW: I second that - Zcatalog doc are REALLY lacking
<faassen> ChrisW: there's docs and useful stuff in there too.
<faassen> Michel: true.
<aquarius> here's an issue, that I for one would like to maintain - updating and concatenating the How-Tos. There are some EXCELLENT how-tos that just need to be edited and updated (or finished), then we can include in the main docs
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<ChrisW> How are you going to cover the medusa stuff left over, like docstrings in oython methods?
<faassen> Michel: though I doubt you'll ever have a complete interfaces documentation unless you explicitize them in code.
<Michel> fassen: it's true that there is a definate to unify the wikis, and even to make them 'exportable' so taht you can walk up to one and download the whole shebang.
<RikH> aquarius: what the HowTos really really needs is a topic access
<Amos> ChrisW: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/ZCatalogTutorial
<Michel> fassen: well, that's a grey area, docs inline with code is good but also bad.
<mindlace> aquarius: I was thinking of trying to link things into zope's new built-in help system
<faassen> Michel: yes, that's why explicit interfaces are good.
<mindlace> so that you could "link" your howto to some place in the help system
<Michel> fassen: the code really is just an implementation of interfaces, the interfaces themselves should be sepreatly defined and documented.
<Dracvl> Amos: that is not good enough, IMHO
<faassen> Michel: that is, doc not inline in code, but inline in explicit scarecrow style interfaces.
<ChrisW> amos: Sorry, that doesn't cut it, it doesn't cover any fo the useful stuff: boolean searches, vocabularies, lexicons...
<faassen> Michel: the only way you can make such a coupling work permanently in my opinion is to make the interfaces explicitly used in the code.
<Dracvl> What is a vocabulary, btw?
<Michel> Dacvl: well, it's old.
<aquarius> mindlace: but many how-tos need updated (like conversion of SSI code)
<faassen> Michel: just keeping docs in parallel will inevitably mean the code evolving and obsoleting the interfaces.
<Amos> mindlace: linking online resources into the online help system would be easy to do and very cool
<Michel> Dracvl: also, Vocabularies haven't even been released yet, so we're still working on that.
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<Michel> Dracvl: Vocabularies and other things are being documented in the interfaces wiki
<mindlace> have you sent the owner of the how-to an email, aquarius? there's that link on the bottom of every how-to page
<aquarius> I think we need to make sure that the how-tos are updated and still relevant
<Dracvl> OT: Any thoughts about integrating SSL support in Zope? That should be important, for obvious reasons
<aquarius> many how-tos address issues that newer Zope fixes
<Michel> faassen: we thought about that, couple interfaces with code, but we punted on it because it's too hard. This is really a python problem that should be solved by the python community, Zope is just the biggest peice of python ever written, so it hurts us the most.
<ChrisW> Dracvl: done already: ZServerSSL
<mindlace> I think that's an obligation of the how-to owner, aquarius. When Zope.org is on zope 2.2 I can have it so you can "hand off" a howto to someone to maintain.
<RikH> Michel: OT, is there going to be a more structured wa to query the catalog?
<aquarius> mindlace: true, we could try to coodinate authors to update (or complete) their work
<Amos> aquarius: keeping community authored docs up to date is a very difficult task. I think Zope.org could do more, but it's really a huge issue.
<Michel> RikH: save that one for when we have a ZCatalog chat
<mindlace> aquarius: have you done much cat-herding lately ? :)
<ChrisW> RikH: Michel told me how to do boolean searches earlier, you can do it already...
<aquarius> mindlace: great idea
<faassen> faassen: it'll be a long time the Python community solves that with the current codebase, I think. years possibly because there's a python standard. I see Zope as a potential driver in this process. By adopting something in Zope, the Python community may go along.
<ucntcme> on howtos ... how about a property to indicate the version(s) of Zope it applies to.
<Dracvl> ChrisW: when I mean integrated... :)
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<ucntcme> and then, have the ability to sort on that property
<faassen> Michel: talking to myself. I meant to say that to you.
--- ucntcme is now known as BillA
<aquarius> ucn: another great idea
<Michel> faassen: absolutely, but I wouldn't want to define all of that myself, this is where I would defer to the resident man-of-Zen, Jim.
<faassen> anyway, at least we have a difference now. Still a problem, but it's different. When the ZDP started, we didn't have much of documentation at all.
<mindlace> see, ucntcme, i think that would be one great side-effect of proper tying in with the built in help system
<faassen> Now, we have *lots* of documentation but it's spread all over the place so we can't find it. :)
<Amos> ucntcme: great idea - there are lots of other enhancements to how-tos that we could have - better rating, feedback, categorization, reader comments, etc.
<mindlace> when you were in, say, zope 2.2, you would only see 2.2 docs
<ChrisW> Now that is crucial I think :-)
<RikH> faassen: so that's the question: how to know who is doing what (and where)
<Maik> faassen: The ZDP Portals try to change that !
<mindlace> I think that's something I'm going to have to be largely involved in, Amos
<Michel> In fact, Jim has done a lot of work on this in the past two years outside of Zope: http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/PythonInterfaces/Summary
<ChrisW> Maik: The ZDP portals are empty :(
<faassen> Michel: yeah, I talked to Jim about this in the past. When I have time (whenver that is), I'll do my two great Zope projects, one is pushing the interfaces and the other is a NextGen DTML. ;)
<kulbrich> A suggesition on community-authored docs like HOWTO's: If they were automatically wiki-ized somehow, even just to append content to them, then if you found a HOWTO, had a hard time, figured out an easier example or correction, you could post it for all.
<BillA> Amos: I agree. I have been taking this type of issue up at <insert name of big-employer> frequently since we will be hosting lots of documentation
<faassen> Maik: I know the ZDP portals try to change that. :)
<Maik> ChrisW: Not everywhere !
<RikH> Maik: yes be we can't keep up well enough
<faassen> Maik: I think some user interface changes can make the ZDP portal go a long way.
<mindlace> kulbrich: send comments to the owners!
<RikH> and anyway, more whould be integrated and automated
<ChrisW> maik: mostly though, which means they don't get used :(
<aquarius> the problem with Wikis is how can we extract that text as documentation?
<BillA> kulbrich: I don't agree on that, I thik that the ability to notify the maintainer is a better interface
<Michel> aquarius: that's an unsolved problem right now
<Amos> BillA: collaboration frameworks are hard. In general I think its best to learn by example and start with simple facilities.
<faassen> Maik: I mentioned this before, but the first thing of all is that the header on each page is far far too big. it takes over one third of a 1024x768 web page, which is unnecessary. it should take 1/10 of the real estate or less.
<Maik> I am using the ZDP portal every time I learn something new about Zope. I simply put it up there for referring to it later.
<aquarius> Micheal: XMLWikis?
<Michel> aquarius: but it's not so bad, I have to manually edit the API refs from the wikis but that stuff needs to be refined anyway. I agree taht i should be more automatic
<faassen> Maik: that is the biggest hurdle. Then I think there should be a push towards reducing clicks to get to real documentation. It should be 2 or 3 clicks max to get to actual documentation. Anything not yet filled in should be clearly shown.
<ChrisW> michel; When are we likely to see a ZCatalog chat? ;-)
<Michel> faassen: u should send that one to webmaster. I agree, that's why I took all the headers and footers out of my wikis.
<Michel> ChrisW yes, waht do you think ethan?
<RikH> Maik: we really whould be thingking about the UI
<faassen> Michel: I tell Maik, who is the main ZDP guy. :)
<Amos> I just want to say a BIG thank you to ZDP folks and others who are trying to help with documentation
<Maik> faassen: I will work on these issues really soon.
<aquarius> :)
<faassen> Michel: at least the main ZDP site developer. ONE of the main ZDP people.
* Dracvl thinks Zope should standardize a #zope channel and server, like the mozilla guys
<aquarius> thanks for the chat Amos
<ChrisW> michel: and do you promise to document anything we ask questions about ;-)
<faassen> Maik: oaky. I mean, commendable job overall!
<aquarius> Dracvl: especially ZDP
<Dracvl> It is nice to have instant help
<mindlace> Um, soon, for the ZCatalog chat, if Michel's up for it
<Dracvl> aquarius: yes, especially ZDP
<Michel> Chris: yeah sure. ;)
<aquarius> yes, guys, how about a ZDP IRC Chan?
<RikH> Michel: great
<Michel> mindlace how about post 2.2?
<mindlace> Dracvl: this is the "standardized" zope channel & server
<mindlace> ok, sounds good to me, Michel
<Dracvl> mindlace: yeah, but to encourage people to hang out here too
<run|home> how about PTK?
<run|home> PTK and Catalog :)
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<BillA> run|home: Nah, PTK and LoginManager ;)
<Dracvl> mindlace: all the time, not just during official chats
<Michel> run|home: that'll have to be a differnt chat, i dn't know muc habout PTK
<Maik> I will give a talk at LinuxTag on the ZDP Portal, so I hope to leverage it's potential ;-)
<Bherserk> A heading on www.zope.org saying people should hang on irc would probably help
<RikH> Maik: great
<mindlace> Dracvl, it's listed on the front page of zope.org, I mention every chat at [email protected], I don't know how to advertize more.
<faassen> Maik: I'm planning to be there. I should process all that LinuxTag mail I've got in my mailbox.
<Michel> just what i need, another way to waste time. ;)
<Dracvl> Michel: It's great :)
<BillA> I agree with the sentiments of having a zope channel encouraged for frequent use, as long as people remember to put what they learn on a website ;)
<ZifNab> Maik: I'll probably there too.
<RikH> faassen: are you gonna give a talk as well?
<faassen> Maik: when you and Stephan get rolling it really rolls, doesn't it? :)
<mindlace> If anyone wants to suggest a topic, go to:
<faassen> RikH: I don't know yet. I should, I suppose. :)
<ChrisW> but michel, it's more direct, if we get answers we can feed them straight into docs... ;-)
<mindlace> http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Chats/ChatTopics
<Maik> faassen - lol
<Michel> Dracvl: oh I spend large chunks of my life, mostly in college, on the irc. you'll have a hard time talking me into it not being a waste of time. ;)
<faassen> Maik: anyway, I'm really impressed by all the ZDP work you've done.
<Dracvl> Michel: I am in college right now, doing exactly that, thank you :D
<faassen> Maik: you came into the ZDP after I drifted away from it into other Zope areas, but I'm real impressed. :)
<Maik> We'll be there on the conference for 5 straight days evangelizing for Zope
<aquarius> GNOME does most of it's coodination on IRC
<Michel> ChrisW: well yes, if that's the case. It would be really more efficient for me to just write them according to your questions.
<aquarius> it works well, IMHO
<RikH> Maik: I'll join the choir for 1 day (probably)
<Maik> faassen - thanks a lot !
<ChrisW> michel: the problem is how to pose them...
<ZifNab> Maik: 5 days??
<Dracvl> Irc.mozilla.org is exceptional
<ChrisW> I;ve posted the questions about the catalog and ac-permissions on zope-dev and had no response :/
<faassen> Maik: are you in Stuttgart?
<mindlace> Ok, a big thanks to Michel and Amos for keeping us up to talk about documentation!
<RikH> thanks guys
<Michel> thanks folks
<Maik> faassen - No
<Dracvl> You guys rock our world :)
<ZifNab> thanks for the talk
<BillA> Having seen the new tutorial in 2.2, I must say it is a great improvement.
<Amos> Thanks to everyone for staying up past your bed times
<aquarius> yes, appreciate it much
<faassen> Maik: just wondering about a place to stay. I'd like to be there fore a couple of days.
<ChrisW> ..and then some
<Michel> yeah, it's WAY past my bedtime...
<Dracvl> 0200 here :)
<Michel> can I take a nap on my desk? ;)
<Amos> BillA: Thanks, I think having there will help a lot for beginners
<faassen> thanks Amos and Michel!
<ZifNab> Dracvl: 0200 also.... from where are you?
<Dracvl> <- Norway
* faassen is in the Netherlands.
<[M]> i�m only read, and learn, 21:00, here, Brazil :)
<aquarius> Amos: I'll contact you about the tutorial website, then
<Maik> faassen - I still don't know where to stay
<ZifNab> Belgium
<faassen> we're a European dominated gathering right now, I think, perhaps..
* RikH so am I !
<zopebee> ok, have a good night -- time to sleep
<aquarius> g'night
<Dracvl> faassen: I would have guessed that from your name :)
<faassen> oh, ZifNab, it's Tom Deprez!
<faassen> cool. :)
* BillA is in Boise, Idaho
<faassen> I hadn't seen you.
<Amos> aquarius - Yes, Thanks!
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<ZifNab> Hoi faassen :-)
<faassen> Maik: okay, we should get together to find out something. Expect some emails from me later this week!
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<Maik> faassen - sure !
<ZifNab> Maik, faassen: I received a link of hotels in Stuttgart from LinuxTag. Don't know yet wich to take, but I hope to find one close to the congress
<Michel> ok, i'm bailing here.
* Dracvl encourages everybody to visit this channel often
<Amos> I just want to encourage folks to check out the training materials I posted today - there's lots of good info there even though its in outline form.
<Michel> good night/day/morning
<mindlace> URL, Amos?
<aquarius> Amos: where?
<mindlace> good evening, Michel
<faassen> ZifNab: would be a good idea to get together on that kind of stuff. I wonder if Stephan can rustle something up. he seems like a guy who can do stuff like that. :)
<aquarius> g'night Micheal
<Michel> thanks ethan
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<ChrisW> yup, thanks to the guy who took the flak for the late time :-)
<ZifNab> Amos: will do, but for me, I will read it in about 8 hours :-)
<RikH> thanks for moderating Ethan
<mindlace> s'ok, I'm the flack masta
<Amos> aquarius: http://www.zope.org/Members/Amos/TrainingSlidesAnnounce
<aquarius> thanks
<Maik> We can set up a list of hotels on the organization pages, or at least a link
<Amos> OK, I gotta go, thanks for the good questions!
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<BillA> thanks for being here Amos
<mindlace> See you, amos!
<RikH> bye Amos