Apr02ChatLog

The following is a text log of the Apr 2 2002 IRC chat between Olivier, Lennart, and Paul:

  <paul_> must be hard using that crazy french keyboard.
  <odeckmyn> tss tss Paul !
  <nidecker> h&eacute;h&eacute;
  <paul_> i'd like to go through a series of questions.
  <odeckmyn> ok 
  <paul_> during this, if it is ok with you, i'll put out a question...
  <odeckmyn> torped : Nicolas made the mockups
  <paul_> then wait for your answers.
  <odeckmyn> ok
  <paul_> the topic of the questions is the basic layout of the pages.
  <lennart_torped> Ah, yes.
  <paul_> we'll start with some agreement on jargon.
  <paul_> first...
  <odeckmyn> (plz remind me the URL of your work ?)
  <paul_> who's work?
  <odeckmyn> IA
  <odeckmyn> lennart and you
  <paul_> currently it's in the mail archive.
  <odeckmyn> Ok, I crawl
  <odeckmyn> go on ;)
  <paul_> let me get a url:
  <paul_> http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2002-March/001067.html
  <paul_> ok back to the jargon.
  <odeckmyn> perfect
  <nidecker> ok
  <paul_> i propose that we first pick two terms:
  <paul_> a. Home page is the layout of the top page.
  <paul_> b. Subordinate page is the layout of all other pages.
  <paul_> the two might have different structures.
  <nidecker> right
  <odeckmyn> I agree
  <paul_> subordinate, for instance, might have fewer (or zero) columns.
  <paul_> ok, that's agreed.  next...
  <paul_> on all pages, we have the following regions of the page:
  <paul_> a. logo (top left)
  <paul_> b. navbar (top, going across)
  <paul_> c. breadcrumbs (most likely under the logo)
  <paul_> d. user menu (on nicolas' mockups, same line as breadcrumbs, right-aligned)
  <paul_> e. side menu (vertically on left).
  <paul_> sound right?
  <odeckmyn> I agree all
  <odeckmyn> this is the way I make website everyday
  <paul_> lennart?
  <nidecker> yes it's right
  <lennart_torped> Fine by me!
  <paul_> oops, i forgot:
  <odeckmyn> don't sleep lennart ! ;)
  <paul_> f. footer. (privacy statement, etc.)
  <odeckmyn> missing footer bar
  <odeckmyn> yes
  <odeckmyn> ok
  <odeckmyn> agree
  <nidecker> ok
  <paul_> i believe the two biggest decisions are navbar and side menu.
  <paul_> thus, the first question:
  <paul_> should the side menu be for the home page, or also subordinate pages?
  <odeckmyn> on both
  <odeckmyn> one need to navigate from anywhere in the website
  <lennart_torped> Yeah, on both.
  <odeckmyn> one can have only big titles on subordinate
  <paul_> there's a strong feeling by some that everything below the breadcrumbs belongs to the content...
  <paul_> ...not the navigation.
  <lennart_torped> It may not be completely static, though, but change some from page to page.
  <paul_> and they don't like losing the space for the column.
  <odeckmyn> we just have to put bread crumb a little more on the right !
  <paul_> lennart_torped: ok, that's a good question.
  <paul_> how much of it is site navigation...
  <paul_> and how much is "section" navigation?
  <paul_> where "it" means the side menu
  <lennart_torped> It's a Good Thing if the top menu can be there at all times.
  <odeckmyn> It's a "must have"
  <paul_> is "top menu" the navbar?
  <odeckmyn> (yes for me)
  <lennart_torped> I ment the side menu for the top page.
  <odeckmyn> ouch
  <paul_> lennart, can you explain a little more?
  <odeckmyn> Can you summarize your sentence so ?
  <lennart_torped> Well, I'll try:
  <lennart_torped> On the top page you will have a side menu. The contents of this should be accessible from all pages.
  <lennart_torped> But you may also need to have sub menues, which differ from page to page.
  <odeckmyn> Ok. I agree.
  <lennart_torped> Which means that you either need to have some kind of hierarchy/tree, or split the side menu in two parts.
  <nidecker> i'm agree
  <paul_> agree on the second
  <paul_> (split)
  <paul_> no trees
  <odeckmyn> While in the "Developper" subsection, you have the developper "menu" expanded in left side, all other subsection having only the title
  <odeckmyn> like in a tree
  <lennart_torped> That works fine, especially if we can keep the depth to a minimum.
  <odeckmyn> paul : you don't like this idea ?
  <paul_> i'll have to see this in action.
  <odeckmyn> Don't you remember vareuse.com ?
  <paul_> ahh, yes.
  <paul_> ok, i can live with that.
  <odeckmyn> it is online
  <odeckmyn> if you dislike : tell us ;)
  <paul_> i just don't want +/- collapse/expand.
  <odeckmyn> Ok
  <paul_> i think it could be portrayed with shading to indicate where you are.
  <odeckmyn> no problem
  <paul_> let me take the discussion for a moment:
  <paul_> we agree that:
  <odeckmyn> anyway, all this can be customized easily after first shot
  <paul_> a. all pages will have a left margin (the side menu)
  <paul_> b. this sidemenu is actually two parts.
  <paul_> c. global stuff and
  <paul_> d. context specific stuff.
  <paul_> agreed?
  <lennart_torped> Yup.
  <nidecker> yes
  <paul_> olivier?
  <odeckmyn> yep yep
  <paul_> ok.
  <paul_> here's another area to get votes on...
  <paul_> this discussion has brought up the topic of "sections"
  <odeckmyn> sure ? ;)
  <paul_> i propose that we use "section" as an organizing principal...
  <paul_> ..similar to other CMS's.
  <paul_> a section is a permanent part of the site structure.
  <paul_> more permanent than a folder.
  <paul_> a section has an owner of the section.
  <odeckmyn> What is a "folder" ?
  <paul_> as well as a menu giving you basic navigation around the important areas of the section.
  <paul_> a zope folder.
  <paul_> a section is also outside of member space.
  <paul_> we will use sections as the basic building block for IA.
  <odeckmyn> I don't see why you link now the "Section" concept to its technical side "Folder" ?
  <lennart_torped> what do you mean with "outside of member space"?
  <paul_> olivier: forget the folder part.
  <odeckmyn> At root of website, where only admin can make changes ?
  <paul_> people won't have to know that the folder is there.
  <paul_> lennart_torped: a section is a common area out in the site, not tied to a specific person (/Members/paul)
  <paul_> let me give an example.
  <lennart_torped> OK. Got it!
  <odeckmyn> "Section" concept is ok for me
  <paul_> Marketing might be a section.
  <odeckmyn> only have 10 minutes left
  <odeckmyn> 10 small  minutes ;)
  <paul_> ok, so we agree.
  <paul_> ...on sections.
  <lennart_torped> Yup.
  <paul_> back to the side menu then.
  <odeckmyn> ok for me
  <paul_> what should go in the global part of the side menu?
  <paul_> according to lennart's ia...
  <paul_> it should be resource types.
  <lennart_torped> Make sense to me. :-)
  <nidecker> i've to leave now ... sorry ... see you soon !
  <paul_> bientot!
  <nidecker> bye
  <-- nidecker ([email protected]) has left #zope-web
  <paul_> fine with me also.
  <paul_> lennart and i will swap emails...
  <paul_> to converge my listing with his.
  <paul_> we'll then send olivier the results.
  <paul_> agreed?
  <lennart_torped> OK.
  <odeckmyn> ok for me
  <paul_> lennart, we'll do that in the hour after this wraps up (in five minutes)
  <odeckmyn> may be we should collect ideas from a) website b) asking mailing list
  <paul_> already have
  <odeckmyn> ok
  <paul_> i'm past that stage now :)
  <odeckmyn> I understand ;)
  <paul_> for the navbar (top menu)
  <paul_> lennart proposed that it be by audience
  <paul_> on the list today i pointed out a challenge
  <paul_> lennart replied with some choices
  <paul_> i *think* lennart and i agreed to this:
  <paul_> a. the navbar is clean, only having home | site map | search [____] (go) | help
  <paul_> b. audience type is moved to the content area for the home page.
  <paul_> lennart?
  <lennart_torped> You only *think* that, we never actually agreed. But it's OK by me. :-)
  <odeckmyn> Isn't it usual to have the list of "sections" on the navbar ? 
  <paul_> unfortunately the list will be more than five, IMO.
  <paul_> thus, we'd have to throw out home, help, and search
  <lennart_torped> The big benefit is having pages that collect the information for the different audiences, and that can be done with listing them on the top page.
  <odeckmyn> should we have metadata on each object, that tells if the object is for newbie, webmaster, developper, etc ?
  <odeckmyn> and use the catalog to have this information found ?
  <paul_> while a good idea...
  <lennart_torped> odeckmyn: Yes, aboslutely.
  <paul_> it hasn't had much luck in practice on zope.org
  <odeckmyn> even if we HAVE to select this to publish ?
  <paul_> how would you do that on a wiki page?
  <odeckmyn> when you open the frontpage
  <paul_> a collector entry?
  <odeckmyn> collector is for developpers ;)
  <lennart_torped> well, thats one way to look at it. :-) 
  <odeckmyn> this is an idea : you don't have to agree !
  <odeckmyn> I am just brainstorming
  <paul_> alas, it's a hard problem.
  <lennart_torped> It doesn't make sense to have an audience split for all information, but for most, like How-tos and products, it does make sense.
  <odeckmyn> ok
  <paul_> i think this means that it goes on the home page content...
  <paul_> not in the navbar.
  <odeckmyn> again, it is not a structural choice. it can be implemented later if one prefer.
  <paul_> correct.
  <lennart_torped> paul: OK.
  <paul_> watch out, a papal edict is coming! :)
  <odeckmyn> we should think about structural choice now !
  <paul_> let's make the navbar home | site map etc. for now...
  <paul_> put the audience type in the home page content area...
  <odeckmyn> ok
  <odeckmyn> I have to leave in 1 minute
  <paul_> and prepare to adapt if people don't like it.
  <odeckmyn> we work on graphic design HTML
  <paul_> great, i think we've made progress!
  <odeckmyn> I will make it a Plone skin after release of 1.0 
  <paul_> olivier, i'll take the log from this and email you the decisions.
  <lennart_torped> OK, great!
  <paul_> bye olivier!
  <odeckmyn> I am sorry I don't have more time tonight
  <odeckmyn> see you
  <lennart_torped> Bye!
  <-- odeckmyn ([email protected]) has left #zope-web
  <paul_> ok lennart, what's next, in your opinioni?
  <lennart_torped> Well, agreeing on the sections, I think.
  <paul_> correct.
  <paul_> how do you navigate to sections?
  <paul_> the first level of site map should be sections.
  <lennart_torped> Exactly.
  <lennart_torped> And the sections are also listed in the "main" part of the side menu.
  <paul_> i thought the resource types were in the main part of the menu.
  <lennart_torped> Well, it's possible to have both... Or does that get too confusing?
  <paul_> it certainly would make a long sidebar.
  <paul_> compare your sidemenu contents at: http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2002-March/001067.html
  <paul_> and...
  <paul_> mine at: http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/newzopeorg/theme1.html
  <lennart_torped> Yeah, I just did, and there I have sections in the sidebar.
  <paul_> are these sections?
  <lennart_torped> Yeah, thats how I thought about it.
  <paul_> ok, sounds good.
  <paul_> then you and i need to spend some time converging our sidemenus.
  <paul_> ...and we'll then have a decision on sections.
  <lennart_torped> OK.
  <paul_> want to do that by email or now?
  <lennart_torped> We can do it by email. I'll have to read through your menus and see.
  <paul_> ok.
  <paul_> i'll do the same.
  <paul_> we'll read each other's emails and try to come up with something shared.
  <lennart_torped> OK, great!
  <paul_> btw...
  <paul_> we never chose two of olivier's mockups.
  <lennart_torped> Oh, right. Do you have the link?
  <paul_> at: http://www.nidecker.net/zope.org/mockups/
  <paul_> i propose 4.1 as the primary choice.
  <lennart_torped> Yes, sure.
  <paul_> although 6.2 got the next most votes.
  <paul_> ...i'm not sure i like the structure.
  <paul_> but i can live with it.
  <lennart_torped> It's OK, I think.