File contents
Session Start: Tue Dec 11 15:05:53 2001
[17:35] *** klm has joined #ZWeb
[17:35] <ChrisW> hi Ken :-)
[17:36] <klm> (hiya, chris - just trying to see if i can use irc, *before* there's no time to flounder!)
[17:37] * ChrisW waves in color
[17:37] <ChrisW> join #zope as well, some nice light hearted stuff there right now :-)
[17:42] *** Martijn has joined #zweb
[17:43] <Martijn> Peek'boo
[17:45] *** seb has joined #zweb
[17:45] <seb> greets
[17:46] <klm> howdy, seb!
[17:46] * seb is thinking about agendas...
[17:47] <klm> i think most of us are paying attn to #zope - i'm mostly not paying attn to irc, yet...
[17:47] <seb> ok. i'm going to get a coffee.
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[17:48] <zopist> hello everybody
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[17:49] <regebro> Hi guys!
[17:49] <zopist> hi
[17:49] <seb> hey folks
[17:50] <ChrisW> hey seb
[17:50] * seb is away: getting some coffee
[17:50] <zopist> so we had more than 26 names... but here i see only 7 !!!!!!
[17:52] <seb> i don't expect more than 15 at most
[17:52] <seb> loads of people won't even have checked their email recently...
[17:53] * seb is back (gone 00:02:58)
[17:53] <zopist> yes pity !!
[17:53] <Martijn> Also, I need to set the #zope title
[17:53] * Martijn pokes ChrisW
[17:53] <ChrisW> what do you want it set to?
[17:53] <Martijn> ChrisW: Oi, I asked if I could get Ops in the #zope channel.. :)
[17:53] * ChrisW didn't notice but just did it anyway
[17:53] <zopist> but we had decided to meet on channel #zope isn't it ??
[17:54] <Martijn> Thanks :)
[17:54] <robertr> i dont know. IRC migth not be to comon for every body. I had to install i myself
[17:54] *** andym has joined #zweb
[17:55] <Martijn> Hi andym
[17:55] *** WiLM has joined #zweb
[17:55] <andym> hey martijn
[17:55] <ChrisW> where's Paul?
[17:55] <klm> zopist: i think this is the right channel for the zope.org conversation
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[17:56] <klm> chrisw: i presume paul will be showing up soon - we still have two minutes...-)
[17:56] * Martijn goes and looks for Paul.
[17:56] <seb> zopist: there was a mail about it yesterday i think
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[17:56] <zopist> klm: yes but in the mailing list we had decided to meet at #zope
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[17:56] <zopist> welcome everybody
[17:57] <seb> zopist: think you missed a mail ;-)
[17:57] <ChrisW> Ken, is Martijn in the states now?
[17:57] <Martijn> ChrisW: Yup, I am in the US
[17:57] <zopist> seb: yes maybe .. i dont know
[17:57] <ChrisW> coooool
[17:57] <ChrisW> ah well, no more de-criminalised pot smoking then ;-)
[17:57] * ChrisW jokes :-P
[17:58] <Martijn> ChrisW: And I'll soooo miss it. Ahem.
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[17:58] * ChrisW laffs
[17:58] <ChrisW> Hey Paul, Jens?
[17:58] <ChrisW> nope, Andreas, sorry...
[17:58] <seb> there's still people arriving, let's start in 5 mins to make sure...
[17:58] <PaulE> Paul, Martijn, and Ken are here for us.
[17:58] <PaulE> hi seb
[17:59] * ChrisW feels intimidated by the ZC 'heavies' that have showed up ;-)
[17:59] <zopist> yes i will announce about the meeting in other channels
[17:59] * ZC-Matt looks meek
[17:59] <zopist> just to remind everybody
[17:59] <Martijn> ChrisW: If yo ucan't stand the heat...
[17:59] * ChrisW gets asbestos pants on :-P
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[17:59] <seb> don't think i've ever attempted a *meeting* on irc before...
[18:00] *** andrew has quit IRC ("MOO<->IRC..InterGalatic-Planetary")
[18:00] * ChrisW ducks out of the way fo Tres's swinging fist...
[18:00] *** andrew has joined #zweb
[18:00] * andrew arrives from the cave.
[18:00] <TresEquis> LOFL
[18:00] <seb> TresEquis: pourquois equis?
[18:00] <andrew> that's better
[18:00] <zopist> ok the number is 16 now !! good
[18:00] <seb> zopist: you made an announcement?
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[18:01] <seb> ok folks, i declare the meeting started
[18:01] <zopist> seb: yes
[18:01] <ZC-Matt> Say something Tres, I just remapped your nick for the synth
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[18:01] <seb> shall i make some dictatorial ground rules..?
[18:01] <zopist> go ahead seb
[18:02] * ChrisW suddenly realises he's the only op in the channel ;-)
[18:02] * Martijn made a last call on #zope.
[18:02] <seb> first, how about length of meeting. i had 4 items of my agenda
[18:02] <seb> how about 10 mins on each?
[18:02] <TresEquis> por que la cerveza
[18:02] *** ChrisW sets mode: +o seb
[18:02] <zopist> 10 mins... it will take more than that
[18:02] <zopist> anyway fine
[18:02] * ZC-Matt nods
[18:03] <seb> i'd like to whizz through stuff and then those with time can hang around after...
[18:03] <seb> so, starting with klm's suggestion:
[18:03] <seb> what are our goals as a group? why are we doing this? (nice and broad to start with)
[18:03] <zopist> seb: can u please refresh us with the agenda items !!
[18:03] <seb> oops
[18:03] <seb> ok
[18:04] <seb> 1. Goals of Gropus
[18:04] <seb> 2. Aims of zope.org site reorg
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[18:04] <seb> 3. Talk about Process
[18:04] <seb> 4. Maybe look at roles
[18:04] <seb> how's that sound?
[18:04] <PaulE> looks good
[18:04] * ChrisW nods
[18:04] * klm nods
[18:04] <zopist> hhmm.. let me write it down
[18:05] <seb> i sent a mail about 10 mins ago...
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[18:05] <seb> so. anyone want to kick off. why are we doing this, what do we hope to achieve?
[18:05] <seb> ....?
[18:05] <zopist> ok seb sounds good
[18:05] <zopist> i think you should lead the meeting
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[18:06] * ChrisW ventures World Domination in the long run, but
[18:06] <TresEquis> Build mechanisms for sharing responsibility for the new zope.org site w/ the community
[18:06] <Haqa> Hi, sorry I'm late
[18:06] <seb> folks keep chatting, i'm just observing for a minute...
[18:07] * ChrisW nods at Tres' comment
[18:07] <PaulE> i've been putting together a page to collect some of this. it has some draft goals.
[18:07] <PaulE> the page is at http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/ZopeReorg/index.html
[18:07] <PaulE> goals listed just above "Projects and People"
[18:08] <ChrisW> without the typo, it looks prettymuch spot on...
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[18:09] * klm nods
[18:09] <regebro> A big bite for a goal, but the correct bite to take.
[18:09] <klm> i'd want to add that "provide useful site" takes precedence for me
[18:09] <PaulE> what typo (he says after sneakily fixing it)
[18:10] * ChrisW grinz
[18:10] <ChrisW> Yeah, I don't think it should be coincidence that "provide useful site" is first on the list
[18:10] <ChrisW> (paul: could that becoem an ordered list rather than a paragraph?)
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[18:11] <zopist> klm: you mean link to useful sites ??
[18:11] * ChrisW wonders if we're covering items 1 & 2 on the agenda?
[18:11] <Martijn> zopist: No, *be* a useful site
[18:11] * seb agrees with ChrisW
[18:11] <PaulE> it is a ul (he says after sneakily changing it)
[18:11] <zopist> ok ok
[18:11] <ChrisW> ol :-P
[18:11] <WiLM> ChrisW: i agree, it should enable developers to *quickly* find the answer to their problems, for example. (all docs etc is a mess now)
[18:12] <ChrisW> that wya, there's mroe sigificance to the useful site bit ;-)
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[18:12] <ChrisW> Well, it should eb a shared space where the community can work together
[18:12] <ChrisW> and that's not aneasy thing to create
[18:12] <seb> one good way of summing up goals is the old 10x thing
[18:12] <zopist> yes
[18:12] <ChrisW> indeed
[18:12] <Haqa> True, but to be that it has to contain the tools and information that the community need
[18:12] <seb> we all want to see zope grow
[18:13] <ChrisW> although i think that makes a pretty good "purpose" for Zoep and its community over the next year
[18:13] <seb> we all have slightly different zope agendas but they all converge on zope being bigger
[18:13] <klm> PROCESS NOTE - we're elaborating what is meant by "useful" - this is a _good_ thing, i hope it gets preserved
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[18:13] * ChrisW is logging
[18:13] <ChrisW> (if no-oneelse is...)
[18:13] <seb> klm: useful as opposed to ...?
[18:13] <Haqa> I am sure that *.zope.org contain the tools, and the information, but I think that putting them in easy reach with out the site becoming "In Your Face" is the hard part
[18:13] <Martijn> Several people are (I am)
[18:14] <ChrisW> Haqa: not really, we don't have an engaging development process, the key bit missing from the Zope world for me
[18:14] <zopist> yes there is very little info about the tools
[18:14] <regebro> Useful site needs: Discussions, ratings, a pathway to guru status, and so on...
[18:14] <Haqa> ChrisW: That is one of the few weaknesses of _content_
[18:15] <klm> useful: so far, "helps developers quickly find answers", "contains tools and info that community needs", maybe we should focus on iterating these things before going into implementation!
[18:15] <seb> ok folks, time to move on...
[18:15] <Haqa> My point is one of ease of access - Try finding the CMF for instance
[18:15] <seb> klm: absolutely. i'm very keen not to focus on implementation early on
[18:15] <seb> for example, 'Finding the CMF' is an implementation goal
[18:16] <zopist> yeah right seb
[18:16] <seb> for item 2, i'm hoping to elaborate on the high-level aims
[18:16] <seb> (of the zope.org site)
[18:16] <PaulE> let's make sure this isn't a catalog of every woe about zope.org and zope.
[18:16] <klm> cool
[18:16] <PaulE> including the catalog. :^)
[18:16] <seb> in the 'Finding the CMF' example, what would the top-level goal be?
[18:16] <Haqa> Paul: This should not be about mud slinging, but about finding were we can make improvements
[18:16] <seb> 'help newbies?'
[18:17] <regebro> Maybe we could discuss what to do first with the site under item 2: Aims of Zope.org reorg, so we don't take on too much?
[18:17] <seb> regebro: sorry, that's actually what i meant
[18:17] <ChrisW> seb, yup that's one
[18:17] <Haqa> seb: Perhaps an improved searching facility.
[18:17] <klm> i think that fits into "helping people find tools and resources"
[18:17] <zopist> seb: i have some info about the views of newbies on zope.org
[18:17] <PaulE> my point isn't thin skin. rather, we *know* there's a problem, so there isn't a need to list 5,000 symptoms.
[18:17] <ChrisW> I would add "encourage developers"
[18:17] <seb> excellent...
[18:17] <Haqa> seb: The flaw is not in the catalog, but in the presentation of the search form and results
[18:17] <zopist> i asked one of my friend from IT field who knows nothing about zope to visit zope.org
[18:18] <ChrisW> So, we haev two, are there any more?
[18:18] <zigg> to add to ChrisW's point, "encourage drive-by contribution"
[18:18] <seb> Haqa: agreed, but I'm looking a level above that. The catalog is a tool we need to improve...
[18:18] <Haqa> paul: You misunderstand me, I was mentioning the CMF as an example only, not as part of a list.
[18:18] <zopist> he just surfed the site and said to me... is DTML new scripting language
[18:18] <PaulE> haqa: ahh, got it.
[18:18] <klm> zopist: sounds like you're suggesting "provide introduction/orientation for newbies"
[18:18] * ChrisW wonders if a Package Repository needs it's own "high level" section
[18:18] <seb> really good points. there are a number of users identified already in the usecases
[18:18] <zopist> klm: yes something like that
[18:19] <ChrisW> seb: newbies, developers, right? who else?
[18:19] <JkrMobile> I think the most important problem here isn't about the content, or searching the content, it's content classification that is easy to understand and navigate for newbies and old timers alike to quickly find information they are looking for..
[18:19] <seb> they were: SiteVisitor, CommunityMember, CommunityMaintainer, FishbowlManager, CommunityManager
[18:19] <Haqa> Question: Does the product repository REALLY want to be separate from the rest of the site catalog?
[18:19] <regebro> I think the rating idea is excellent, and the search could rank think on the ratings.
[18:19] <ChrisW> seb: loose the FishbowlManager... bad memories :-S
[18:19] <zopist> i mean once a new user comes on zope.org he should immediately get some info on what can zope do for him
[18:19] <Haqa> Might it not be useful for a search to bring up the product and the documents about it?
[18:19] <PaulE> this page has some actors: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/UseCases
[18:20] <seb> PaulE: that's where I copied those from
[18:20] <zopist> not just what zope is, but how will it help him !!
[18:20] <PaulE> ahh, sorry.
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[18:20] <seb> zopist: you are talking about the casual visitor, yes?
[18:20] <ChrisW> Paul: don't know why but they don't fel quite right :-S
[18:20] <zopist> seb :yes
[18:20] <Dracvl> hi folks
[18:20] <seb> i suggest we need to refine the concept of SiteVisitor
[18:21] <ChrisW> yup, it's too broad
[18:21] <zopist> hmmm
[18:21] <ChrisW> maybe NonZopeUser?
[18:21] <seb> for example, what sorts of newbies are there?
[18:21] * Dracvl is Alexander Limi, by the way :)
[18:21] <regebro> A community where everybody can provide content, will suffer from information overflow if it doesn't get organized somehow.
[18:21] <zopist> 1. user who knows nothing about zope
[18:21] <zopist> 2. user who has some idea about zope .. through word of mouth
[18:22] <regebro> That organisation should in an ideal word also be provided by the community.
[18:22] <zopist> and who else
[18:22] <Trevor> newbie who knows HTML but not python (not really a developer)
[18:22] <zopist> yeah.. good point trevor
[18:22] <Dracvl> also people that grok DTML/ZPT, but are unfamiliar with the API
[18:22] <regebro> Zopist: And product developer
[18:22] <TresEquis> Python programmer who doesn't know Zope
[18:23] <zopist> ok yes
[18:23] <Haqa> zopist: How do you intend to have the site differentiate between these users? Ask? If so, how?
[18:23] <Trevor> newbie that knows development and admin but not yet python
[18:23] <ChrisW> Tres: good take... I know a lot of those...
[18:23] <zopist> well there r too many different user !!! :)
[18:23] <seb> ok, we're getting into details again too early ;-)
[18:24] <seb> the general point is that we need to *know* who we're trying to attract
[18:24] <Trevor> those that can mostly help themselves, and those that need help
[18:24] <klm> haqa: issue is not the site differentiating, but the different users being able to find the parts of the site that concern them
[18:24] * zigg says again, "drive-by contributors"
[18:24] <seb> (with the goal of increasing zope 10x over the next year)
[18:24] <zopist> let make 3 or 4 groups.. not more
[18:24] <seb> Haqa: this is the kind of issue I would like to address at a later stage
[18:25] <klm> So far: "useful":
[18:25] <klm> - help developers find answers
[18:25] <klm> - help community find tools and resources
[18:25] <klm> - help newbies get oriented
[18:25] <klm> - maintain clear, navigable organization
[18:25] <zopist> i mean user groups
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[18:25] * ChrisW nods at klm
[18:25] <zxc_> howdy
[18:25] <ChrisW> that's pretty spot on
[18:25] <zopist> klm: good
[18:25] <TresEquis> zigg: that's catchy, but I'm not sure what you mean
[18:25] <zopist> let me write it down
[18:25] <Haqa> klm: I think the information needs to be identified, not the users
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[18:25] <seb> ok. i'd like to round this item off soon...
[18:25] <regebro> seb: Also: help the community give back to Zope
[18:26] <zigg> make it easy for someone to contribute without making a huge commitment
[18:26] <ChrisW> Tres: most of us, who want to help btu can't devote mroe thanan hour at a time to doing so...
[18:26] <WiLM> notification of "changes in information" on the site is important too
[18:26] <klm> haqa: agreed - but that's getting to *how* we do it, and we first need to identify *what* we want to accomplish
[18:26] <ChrisW> actually, Ken, you missed off the most important part of that...
[18:26] <ChrisW> I misread the first line, which I reckon should read:
[18:26] <ChrisW> - help developers contribute to Zope's development
[18:27] <seb> question: how would we measure the success of the community site?
[18:27] <ChrisW> active user accoutns?
[18:27] <seb> (i think this is a good way of summing up the aims)
[18:27] <zopist> seb: its difficult to measure success
[18:27] <klm> - enable people to contribute with different levels of commitment
[18:27] <zigg> active as in "user has modified or created objects"
[18:27] <seb> zigg: yes
[18:27] * ChrisW likes Ken's suggestion better than his own :-)
[18:27] <Trevor> Current user pages and product pages are currently only controlled by the author, this requires you to contact to author to post changes or updates to the pages. very inconvenient for everyone and does not encourage community.
[18:28] <Haqa> klm: My concern is, that is what Microsoft did to the technet site, and it means that I have to decide what kind of person would want the information I am asking for. If we didn't all NEED MS, I would go elsewhere... Zope can't afford that
[18:28] <ChrisW> Haqa: that's a detail, can we coem back to details later?
[18:28] <Trevor> take a more collaborative approach to simplifying the process for "drive by" efforts and input
[18:29] <Haqa> seb: Ask users if search results answered their questions
[18:29] <seb> Haqa: i think that's because the m$ site is badly architected, not because they identified user types
[18:29] <seb> Haqa: yes
[18:29] <PaulE> i've captured ken's items and the list of target users at http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/ZopeReorg/11DecNotes.html
[18:29] <Haqa> seb: Or less specifically, solicit browser feedback
[18:29] <JkrMobile> I don't think you can accurately measure it. Sure, there will be very 'active' folks contributing, but then, you need to take into the account that the site is a success if we draw more people to zope.. how do you measure that if not everyone has time to contribute, but does maintain/build active zope sites?
[18:29] <zopist> haqa: search produces too many unwanted results
[18:30] <seb> I would like to convene some 'focus groups' and compare before and after...
[18:30] <Trevor> IOTW, current zope.org focuses on the individual users. Let's focus on the products and efforts to support them.
[18:30] <PaulE> trevor: that's an interesting direction...
[18:30] <zigg> good call, Trevor
[18:31] <zopist> yes i agree with trevor
[18:31] <zigg> a Product has Members rather than vice versa
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[18:31] <Haqa> I think there is also a need to focus on _SOLUTIONS_
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[18:31] <zopist> maybe we can start with better navigation to different products ??
[18:31] <PaulE> whew, we're accumulating a hell of a list
[18:31] <Haqa> We need to be able to show that Zope is not just a developer toy
[18:31] <klm_reconnect> sorry - i got disconnected, missed everything for the past minute
[18:32] *** klm_reconnect is now known as klm
[18:32] <ChrisW> zigg: spot on, look at SourceForge as a model
[18:32] <zigg> haqa: are you kidding, it's the cheapest toy I own ;-)
[18:32] <Trevor> shhh. stop talking about klm.
[18:32] * ChrisW watcehs for Paul's look of disgust ;-)
[18:32] <zopist> klm: u didn't miss anything imp... hang on
[18:32] <PaulE> here's something we all have to remember:
[18:32] <PaulE> these ideas have to have people to work on them.
[18:32] <PaulE> right, chris? :^)
[18:32] <ChrisW> indeed
[18:32] <Dracvl> Product Ratings would be useful in navigating the big number of products too - and comments from the users on each Product, ofcourse.
[18:32] <Haqa> zigg: Me too, but that is not the point. We want people to "buy" into the Zope story we are trying to "sell" them
[18:32] <zxc_> is there ZC crew around?
[18:33] <seb> ok folks, sorry but it's time to move on to the next point...
[18:33] <regebro> And not only products, but documents too need rating!
[18:33] <seb> ..there's loads of really good stuff so far though
[18:33] <PaulE> zxc_: tres, martijn, ken, paul
[18:33] <zopist> yes.. intresting points
[18:33] <zxc_> thanks
[18:33] <seb> The final point for discussion will be some idea of roles
[18:33] <ChrisW> so, what poitns have we covered, what have we got left?
[18:33] <klm> (i was going to say that the ideas about ratings, product feedback, etc, are all implementation ideas about the goal of enabling contribution, specifically by providing for feedback
[18:33] <zopist> concentrare on agenda everybody
[18:33] <klm> )
[18:33] <Trevor> arent most of these already on http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/ProductManager
[18:34] <seb> ok, so far, rouhgly, we have sort of covered:
[18:34] <Haqa> seb: Roles in what sense?
[18:34] <seb> 1) Goals. I suggested the 10x thing, there were lots of other ideas which i'll collate later
[18:34] <seb> 2) Aims of site. We've talked about users and product focus, and more...
[18:34] <seb> 3) Process
[18:34] <seb> 4) Roles
[18:35] <seb> Haqa: we need to segment this project into chunks
[18:35] <PaulE> process, hmm, yummy.
[18:35] <regebro> Process? I remember nothing about process, did we discuss that?
[18:35] <Haqa> gotcha
[18:35] <seb> and then people need to take responsibility for those chunks
[18:35] <zigg> pasteurized process (-:
[18:35] <seb> regebro: no, that's next!
[18:35] <seb> so.
[18:35] <ChrisW> what do you mean by process, seb?
[18:35] <seb> ok, i mean by process the following:
[18:35] <zopist> and there has to be leaders for these chunks .. right ??
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[18:36] <regebro> Well, we need to be as XP as is humanly possible...
[18:36] <seb> zopist: right
[18:36] <zopist> ok
[18:36] <seb> regebro: i'm not convinced about being XP for the whole project lifecycle
[18:36] <seb> my preferred route is to take a load of time...
[18:36] <seb> ...over defining the requirements. looking at the actors,
[18:36] <seb> use cases, success criteria.
[18:37] <seb> then, functional spec...
[18:37] <seb> this would be more of the implementation details
[18:37] <zopist> i think we should make a final list of who will do what.. and for how many hrs a week
[18:37] <TresEquis> XP and distributed is hard, Chris
[18:37] <seb> then information architecture: usability!!!!
[18:37] <ChrisW> Tres: weren't me guvnor ;-)
[18:37] <seb> then... well, that'll do for now.
[18:37] <TresEquis> XP depends on *very* high-bandwidth communication
[18:37] <TresEquis> Sorry, that was regebro
[18:37] <ChrisW> indeed
[18:38] <regebro> TresEquis: Yes, thats why we need to be as XP as possible, instead of 100% XP. :-)
[18:38] <ChrisW> and we need to get better at communicatign as a community
[18:38] <zopist> hey and where do we keep all the work ??
[18:38] <ChrisW> particularly across the ZC/community divide...
[18:38] <PaulE> the good news is, whoever runs a project can choose whatever damn methodolgy they like!
[18:38] <zopist> yes and how do we communicate effectively
[18:38] <seb> zopist: this will be partly up to the 'chunk' leaders
[18:38] <zopist> ok
[18:38] <seb> we must delegate as much as possible, imo
[18:38] <PaulE> zopeorgreorg is seb's so he sets the rules on this one
[18:38] * ChrisW nods at seb
[18:39] <seb> this is why we all need to agree on a process for managing the site.
[18:39] <seb> ok, here's a starter for one:
[18:39] <zopist> what about communication.. any other way besides emails ??
[18:39] <seb> how long will it take?
[18:39] <ChrisW> seb: can you elaborate on 'manmaging the site'?
[18:39] <Trevor> emails are notifiers, the website is the archive
[18:39] <regebro> Zopist: Discussion forums. They are superiour to emails if they are any good.
[18:40] <PaulE> zopist: i'd like to pitch on that one.
[18:40] <seb> ChrisW: yes (in a moment)
[18:40] <ChrisW> "how long will it take?" doesn't seem to fit with your stated process..
[18:40] <PaulE> namely, setup a place that lists the projects and the people
[18:40] <PaulE> i'll make more progress on it today
[18:40] <PaulE> seb has the first project
[18:40] <seb> ChrisW: ok, that was a stupid question ;-)
[18:40] <ChrisW> ?
[18:40] <seb> does anyone object to starting by drawing up a requirements document
[18:40] <PaulE> nope
[18:41] <seb> ChrisW: (the one about how long it will take)
[18:41] <zopist> yes, how about this. every leader will communicate to his team member and other leaders via online messangers
[18:41] <zopist> like ICQ or yahoo messanger
[18:41] <zigg> zopist: doesn't work for some of us
[18:42] <zopist> zigg: why ??
[18:42] <ChrisW> zopist: details, details... can we leave it for later
[18:42] <klm> i think the process issues for the central effort are not dictating the way a project works, but how the
[18:42] <zigg> firewalls, company policry, the desire not to get interrupted when doing other work
[18:42] <zigg> oop sorry
[18:42] <klm> projects commitment to the site is fulfilled
[18:42] <zopist> zigg: yeah true... firewalls , policies !!!
[18:42] <ChrisW> indeed
[18:42] <regebro> What use would ICQ fulfill?
[18:42] <seb> klm: elaborate please?
[18:43] <ChrisW> ken: and how it's measured and finished in the appropriate manner
[18:43] <PaulE> yawn...three hour tool discussion ahead.
[18:43] <zopist> regebro: just to let us know who is online and immediately get in touch.
[18:43] <klm> i expect the central effort needs to provide for sane collaboration among the various parties doing various things
[18:43] <klm> and ...
[18:43] * ChrisW grinz and hands Paul a pillow and some Hot Chocolate ;-)
[18:43] <zopist> regebro: cuz there wont be any fixed schedules of work.
[18:43] * andrew has disconnected.
[18:44] <klm> try to set standards of commitment and success, so there's something predictable going on!
[18:44] <regebro> Zopist: OK, the online part would be useful. But for fast one on one communication telephone rules! :-)
[18:44] <klm> it's not about whether project members talk with eachother via icq!
[18:44] <ChrisW> regebro/zopist: can you leave that dicussion for another time?
[18:44] <Haqa> I think I can be sure that no one will be getting my phone number
[18:44] <seb> regebro: sorry to be bossy, but could we stick to the agenda for now and chat after?
[18:44] <zopist> regebro: i cannot afford to pay the telephone bills
[18:44] <Haqa> Work or home
[18:45] <zopist> ok ok lets stick to agenda
[18:45] *** Retrieving #zweb info...
[18:45] <seb> klm: do you mean, you think an actual set of procedures towards delivering the site...
[18:45] <seb> ...is of secondary importance to..?
[18:46] * seb is a bit lost ;)
[18:46] <PaulE> seb, i have some process questions, if that's ok
[18:46] <seb> great
[18:47] <PaulE> related to how we're going to organize ourselves to attack these things...
[18:47] <PaulE> first, where do we collect and assign ideas, bugs, and things to do?
[18:47] <zopist> can i answer that
[18:47] <PaulE> (note: i have a suggestion... :^)
[18:47] <PaulE> hit it, andy
[18:47] <TresEquis> http://collector.zope.org/ZopeOrg/
[18:48] <PaulE> ten stars for tres, he got it right!
[18:48] <seb> right on :)
[18:48] <Trevor> PaulE: can you give us a short perspective on where new.zope.org has left off and how far down the road you have gone, so we can leverage that effort?
[18:48] <TresEquis> http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/ZopeReorg/UseCaseStatus.html
[18:48] <PaulE> trevor: let's add that after seb's agenda.
[18:48] <seb> good idea
[18:48] <PaulE> i don't want him to smite me w/ the benevolent dictator's scepter
[18:48] *** andrew has quit IRC ("MOO<->IRC..InterGalatic-Planetary")
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[18:49] * andrew arrives from the cave.
[18:49] <seb> PaulE: you had more questions?
[18:49] <PaulE> yep
[18:50] <PaulE> about a top-level, organizing page....
[18:50] <PaulE> i propose something at www.zope.org/Resources/CommunityZope
[18:50] <PaulE> (seb's idea)
[18:50] <PaulE> it will link to various projects
[18:50] <zopist> yes good suggestion
[18:50] <PaulE> as we decide to reuse existing new.zope.org stuff, we'll migrate it.
[18:51] <seb> yes. i should have made clear at the start...
[18:51] <seb> ..that i see the zopeorgreorg effort as primarily about
[18:51] <PaulE> but it will be a clean slate.
[18:51] <PaulE> owned by the people that step up to the plate.
[18:51] <seb> making the information on the website more accessible and successful
[18:52] <seb> product packaging is a big enough issue to be its own project, for example
[18:52] <seb> this would be linked to from CommunityZope, and would be led by someone else
[18:52] *** Haqa has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
[18:52] <PaulE> the most important part of this page...
[18:52] <PaulE> ...is the link to project owners.
[18:52] <PaulE> which means that seb needs to scope his project well.
[18:53] <PaulE> and decide what's not in scope.
[18:53] <zopist> project owners = project leaders ???
[18:53] <seb> yep. so what's not in the scope of what i'm talking about now when i talk about process, is:
[18:53] <PaulE> for instance: seb might call the shots on information architecture (hierarchy and categories)
[18:53] <seb> product issues, dev.zope.org stuff is not mine
[18:53] <PaulE> ...but not on skins (Alex) or package managers (somebody else)
[18:54] <PaulE> zopist: yep
[18:54] <seb> PaulE: yes, that's what i had in mind
[18:54] <PaulE> seb, wanna give some other indications of out-of-scope for you?
[18:54] <seb> yep, let's see
[18:55] <seb> by dev.zope.org, i mean the fishbowl primarily
[18:55] <PaulE> good point.
[18:55] <seb> what i *do* want to do is oversee the look and feel
[18:55] <seb> plone stuff will all be down to alex, alan...
[18:56] <seb> but i want to make sure they have what they need to acheive it]
[18:56] <PaulE> will that exceed your time quota?
[18:56] <zopist> lool and feel will come later on..
[18:56] <klm> so, fishbowl's overarching goal, ~ "provide a framework for zope development collaboration", is not in scope
[18:57] <seb> klm: correct, but defining where it interfaces with zope.org *is*
[18:57] <klm> cool
[18:57] <PaulE> ok, i propose we move on, but that seb work on writing up the boundaries
[18:57] <seb> so, when i talk about process...
[18:57] <PaulE> thanks for the mike, seb
[18:57] <seb> np
[18:57] <seb> ..i'm talking about the steps required to reach the goal, when that goal is:
[18:58] <seb> a first stop community site which help the '10x zope' goal
[18:59] <seb> so, i'm going to sort out defining requirements, goals for this site
[18:59] <seb> based on dicussions here.
[18:59] <PaulE> good
[18:59] <zopist> just now seb ??
[18:59] <seb> what should come next? i suggested some kind of functional spec
[18:59] <seb> this should be a document which describes how to meet the goals set out in the requirements
[18:59] <seb> how does this sound>
[19:00] <seb> ?
[19:00] <robertr> a question would i18n be within scope ??
[19:00] <maxm> right
[19:00] <PaulE> the underlying software doesn't support it.
[19:00] <seb> yes, that's the problem. but i think it should be in the requirements
[19:00] <PaulE> seb: sounds good. the next chat will be more productive if we review, rather than brainstorm.
[19:00] <seb> even if the solution in the functional spec is to have multiple sites
[19:01] <MrTopf> it should be in the reqs under "not yet" somewhere
[19:01] <seb> MrTopf: yes. i'll definitely work it in.
[19:01] <PaulE> please remember: it's one thing to say "let's do i18n" in an irc chat.
[19:01] <regebro> Well, with putting dev.zope.org oyut of scope we are fleshing out two community sites here, with different goals. www.zope.org and dev.zope.org. Both will have a lot of similar functionality, but completely diffrenet requirements, goals and people. Thats good..
[19:01] <TresEquis> So agenda items should be web documents, which all can read before the chat
[19:01] <PaulE> it's another to say: "i'll contribute 20 hours to zope.org to help."
[19:02] <regebro> Oh, you ment multiple sites in i18n... Duh, stupid me...
[19:02] <seb> PaulE: yes, but it can still be in the requirements - i'm not intending on making it my problem ;-)
[19:02] <PaulE> nice approach. :^)
[19:02] <MrTopf> PaulE: I know, but nevertheless it might be written somewhere and later it can be decided what can be done
[19:02] <seb> regebro: yes, but well put point anyway..
[19:02] <seb> ok folks, we've been going an hour....
[19:02] <PaulE> seb, well done!
[19:02] <klm> (seb: given a set of goals, i'd see how the use cases fit into them, where more use cases are needed, etc, then look at functionality)
[19:02] <MrTopf> :-)
[19:03] <zopist> qiuck minutes of the meeting somebody !!
[19:03] <robertr> thanks
[19:03] <PaulE> remember, this is the first step of many.
[19:03] <zopist> quick
[19:03] <PaulE> we need to keep making progress and get things accomlished!
[19:03] <seb> i think this has been a good start
[19:03] <zopist> yes... so far so good
[19:03] <Martijn> Small note: I am moving the items from old trackers to the new collector.
[19:03] * klm nods
[19:03] <Martijn> I'll post a message when I am ddone.
[19:03] <seb> we haven't got onto roles yet. just for future reference, would anyone like to volunteer for the functional spec?
[19:03] <PaulE> martijn: good!!!!!
[19:04] <PaulE> seb, can i have one last question?
[19:04] <seb> ?
[19:04] <PaulE> which is...
[19:04] <PaulE> right now we have one project and one project leader (seb).
[19:04] <PaulE> that's a good start.
[19:04] * ChrisW nods, pretending he's eben here the whole time ;-)
[19:04] <zopist> when do we discuss about roles ??
[19:05] <PaulE> other stuff is needed. so if you're interested in scratching a zope.org itch, let me know.
[19:05] <PaulE> goodness knows zope.org has enough itches to warrant the measels.
[19:05] <seb> zopist: another meeting / email / now for anyone who wants to stay
[19:05] <maxm> seb: i am ok with a functional spec
[19:05] <zopist> seb will u write the minutes of the meeting
[19:05] <seb> yep
[19:06] * ChrisW is attempting to scratch the indexing itch, if anyone is interested...
[19:06] <ChrisW> Should I get a zope.org project for that?
[19:06] * Dracvl wants to scratch the layout itch :)
[19:06] <seb> maxm: you're big on usability right? it might be better for you to concentrate on info arch?
[19:06] <PaulE> hmm, that's a little low level. nothing unique to zope.org, is it?
[19:06] <ChrisW> not yet
[19:06] <zopist> and what next ?? just some hints so that we can ponder about it !!!!
[19:06] <Martijn> ChrisW: Are you talking about the current zope.org?
[19:06] <ChrisW> btu it couldreach up into there at some stage
[19:06] <PaulE> zopist: who was that directed at?
[19:06] <maxm> thats closely connected to the functional design i think
[19:07] <seb> zopist: next i am going to flesh out the process for zopeorgreorg, and solicit leaders for the sections
[19:07] <zopist> just in general...
[19:07] <ChrisW> Martinj: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonindexer/
[19:07] <regebro> Sounds like a good plan.
[19:07] <seb> then i'll try to take more of a back seat, and manage other peoples' time
[19:07] <zopist> seb: ok good
[19:07] <seb> and also next, as PaulE suggests
[19:08] <seb> hopefully other people will come forward for fishbowl, colellector, prodcuts...
[19:08] <seb> ok thanks everyone for coming
[19:08] *** PaulE has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.8.5-rc2 [Mozilla rv:0.9.6+/20011207]")
[19:08] <seb> i'm sticking around but i'll stop being bossy now ;-)
[19:08] <zopist> ok thanks everybody i am hungry ... gotta run
[19:08] <zopist> bye
[19:09] <regebro> Excellent, things feel a bit better now! :-)
[19:09] <seb> zopist: laters..
[19:09] <Martijn> Thanks everyone, I am off for some lunch.
[19:09] <Martijn> Bibi\
[19:09] *** Martijn has left #zweb ("Client Exiting")
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[19:09] <TresEquis> Bye, y'all
[19:09] *** TresEquis has left #zweb
[19:09] <robertr> bye all
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[19:10] * ChrisW goes grocery shopping... seeyaz later
[19:10] *** ChrisW is now known as village_idot
[19:10] <village_idot> just for chrism ;-)
[19:11] *** village_idot is now known as ChrisW
[19:11] <klm> i'm off to hack on notification for zope.org wikis (i guess that's a fishbowl thing, but may be useful generally on zope.org)
[19:11] *** Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Dec 11 19:11:18 2001
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