Apr04ChatLog

<PaulE> do you mean audience?
<sebb> For example, there are very many newbies who turn away.  do we care about 

them more or less than python developers?
<sebb> audience, right
<BillA> olivier: that URL returns not ofund :(
<sebb> perhaps that's not necessary though - what do folks think?
<olivier> typo : http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/newzopeorg/ia02Apr2002.txt
<BillA> sebb: do you mena, who are we tryign to talk to sort of thing?
<PaulE> sebb: ok, I'll provide more detail.
<BillA> olivier: thanx
<PaulE> sebb, you were setting deadlines. continue. :)
<sebb> BillA: right, it would provide a means to justify IA layout decisions
<sebb> ok, PaulE ok for wed?
<sebb> olivier, what do you need to produce a final front page design?
<PaulE> yes.
<lennart> I think the most important is the newbies.
<PaulE> i'm out of the office from sat to wed, so that means tomorrow.
<olivier> sebb : time ;)
<sebb> how many iterations?
<casey> lennart: I would shoot just one level above total newbies...
<olivier> we will make reports every night
<sebb> you are ok for time on that olivier?
<lennart> Casey: Well, I include total newbies and beginners in the same. It 
needs to be easier to find information to get started.
<olivier> yes
<BillA> sebb: I seem to recall someone saying something about splitting it up 
into sub-sites, and that the main www.zope.org would be aimed at introductory 
information, is that on the table?
<PaulE> i propose that we don't say "_final_ front page design"
<casey> lennart: yes
<PaulE> rather "_next_"
<sebb> OK, re audience - how about PaulE leads a email thread listing his ideas 
and we take it from there?
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<sebb> PaulE: right
<PaulE> sebb: ideas on what?
<PaulE> i have no ideas. :)
<sebb> PaulE, audience :)  Ultranewbies first, pythonistas second, etc...
<sebb> You could take the survey results as a starting point
<PaulE> ahh, ok.
<PaulE> yes, i'll handle that one in my writeup.
<sebb> ok, how about a final-next design by..hmm....
<PaulE> tomorrow.
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<PaulE> we're close enough.
<sebb> ok
<PaulE> there's plenty more ground to cover...
<PaulE> but we need to get to a checkpoint.
<sebb> how about whatever we have week thurs we stick to on design
<sebb> thurs because that's when you're back, PaulE.
<PaulE> good idea.
<sebb> PaulE: remember it's the end of the day in europe...
 rdmurray has left channel #zope-web
<sebb> casey: could you write up some sketches regarding functionality?
<casey> Like a list of requirements, or...
<sebb> i think the most important thing there is to concentrate on easy wins
<casey> 8^)
<sebb> identify the easiest ones :-)
<olivier> Someone is yawning here :( Have to leave soon ! Do you still need me ?
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<PaulE> sebb: describe the next milestone.
<PaulE> olivier: give us 5 more minutes?
<olivier> Ok. Negociating
<sebb> ok, we have IA finished Wed, Design Thurs.
<PaulE> sebb: the one after this.
<olivier> Ok. Have 5 minutes
<PaulE> right.
<sebb> A milestone point could be Friday
<casey> sebb: What do you want me to sketch exacty, biggest bang to buck 
features to work on?
<sebb> This would be: a completed front page design
<PaulE> to include writing up scenarios/requirements?
<sebb> casey: right
<sebb> (week friday)
<sebb> ..completed front page design...
<sebb> ...'bang to buck' funtionality...
<sebb> ..IA defining site taxonomy and front page layout.
<PaulE> good.
<casey> ok
<PaulE> we'll put this in the wiki as the schedule.
<PaulE> before olivier leaves...
<olivier> ok
<PaulE> i'd like to get a vote on something, and also...
<PaulE> set the time for the next chat.
<PaulE> 10
<PaulE> 10AM eastern tomorrow?
<PaulE> to review the milestone?
<lennart> OK for me.
<sebb> OK
<olivier> ok
<PaulE> done.
<casey> too early 8^)
<PaulE> seb, can you announce it?
<olivier> could be late
<olivier> if not there, i will leave on email on zope-web with a new url
<PaulE> ok.
<PaulE> on to what i'd like a vote on...
<sebb> ...could we nudge it forward for casey?
<casey> I was kidding...
<sebb> :)
<PaulE> if it is ok, i'd like to go through a series of sentences without 
interruptions...
<PaulE> ...then get +1/-1 from eveyone.
<PaulE> cool?
<PaulE> ok, here goes.
<PaulE> instead of one www.zope.org that does news, apps, docs, recipes, etc....
<PaulE> perhaps we should encourage apps.zope.org, news.zope.org, docs.zope.org, 

etc.
<PaulE> a family of sites...
<PaulE> perhaps in different locations...
<PaulE> similar to how KDE works.
<PaulE> this would lower the stress of a mammoth zope.org upgrade.
<PaulE> thoughts?
<BillA> +5
<BillA> I htought I heard that somewhere :)
<lennart> +0.5?
<olivier> -1
<sebb> sounds good, but how is it different from news sections etc?
<olivier> (what about searches ?)
<casey> I dunno... It really depends how you do it...searches, yeah that could 
be confusing
<BillA> olivier: eitehr an XML or SOAP interface to search multiple catalogs 
might work
<olivier> let's make it simple ;)
<casey> nah, you could still have one catalog methinks
<PaulE> the goal would be to encourage creativitiy.
<sebb> PaulE: could you explain the benefits?
<PaulE> get new stuff sooner.
<sebb> PaulE: different branded sites, with different managers, etc?
<PaulE> and not make www.zope.org the bottleneck for progress.
<olivier> this could be done with hyperlinks !
<BillA> true, if you could implement it such that all sites catalogued a main 
catalog, say search.zope.org, along with their own (that way it spreads load 
out) it could work
<casey> It'll be confusing from a UI perspective...
<PaulE> yes, it isn't as integrated.
<PaulE> but integration hasn't helped www.zope.org.
<PaulE> in some ways, it has hurt it.
<PaulE> i.e. the whole product catalog thing sucks.
<casey> I think I'm ambivilant. Either way could be bad or good, really.
<sebb> i'm not clear on the difference between splitting a site based on url 
path vs. splitting it by subdomain
<casey> right
<PaulE> forget technology
<lennart> I'm slowly changing my mind to -1 here..
<olivier> still -1 :)
<PaulE> ok.
<sebb> not made up my mind...
<casey> I think I prefer a split below the home page possibly, rather than above 

it
<PaulE> there certainly isn't a strong consensus to do it.
<BillA> one advantage is that is zope.org goes down, then developers.zope.org 
could still be up
 Signoff: hathawsh ("back to woik")
<PaulE> case closed!
<olivier> one can have subdomains that are mapping a subpart of the mammoth 
website !
<sebb> PaulE, the problem you wish to address is bottleneck, right?
<PaulE> yep.
<BillA> I think uptime should be afactor as well
<PaulE> people work better by themselves. :)
<sebb> do you think you can identify the bottleneck more accurately?
<casey> I think areas of the site could still have home pages tho, with 
delegated resposible parties
<sebb> e.g. give an example?
<PaulE> sebb: nope. :)
<PaulE> here's a shot.
<PaulE> andy mckay does a better job of zope news than we'll ever do.
<PaulE> rather than recreate it.
<casey> BillA: uptime won't really be affected either way. Either one could live 

on one or more servers in many ways.
<PaulE> let him do it.
<sebb> so it's about clean delegation
<olivier> my time is over :(
<olivier> have to leave
<PaulE> it's about tapping into energy.
<sebb> cya
<PaulE> bye olivier!
<BillA> bye olivier
<olivier> waiting for the summary :)
<olivier> bya !
 olivier has left channel #zope-web
<PaulE> one last question.
<casey> This is not about splitting the site ui wise, I think its more about 
unifying the existing sites (zopezen, zopelabs, etc), maybe?
<sebb> PaulE, right, energy
<PaulE> should we spend any energy at all trying to improve current 
www.zope.org?
<PaulE> i don't expect new.zope.org to replace it in the next 3 months.
<sebb> we should migrate existing content i think
 Signoff: nidecker (Connection timed out)
<casey> Then yes, at least content wise.
<PaulE> fyi: the forked site discussion has closed. :)
<PaulE> we're going to live with current.zope.org for a while.
<sebb> i vote for leaving zope.org
<sebb> it's been like that for 3 years...
<PaulE> improve it a little?
<casey> functionality no, content yes
<casey> define "a little"
<PaulE> how about how it looks?
<BillA> I think a mixture of new and www, with an increase in new's useage might 

be fesible
<PaulE> for instance, make it less stupid for downloading products (twelve 
clicks)
<sebb> the feedback seemed to be that people quite liked the way it *looked*
<sebb> good point about downloading though
<PaulE> that's weird. :)
<PaulE> i might tinker with it a little.
<casey> We could pull a "all new chevy" trick... (rebody!)
<PaulE> if others are interested...
<PaulE> ...lemme know.
<sebb> ok
<BillA> sebb: yes, the downloading thing is a matter we need to fix ... even I 
hate to go download things from tehjre
<PaulE> let's wrap this up.
<PaulE> seb, you get the final word.
<sebb> ok, i'll send out an email
<sebb> some action points too
<sebb> we're meeting tomorrow anyway so let's split!
<PaulE> see everybody tomorrow.
<lennart> OK! Bye everybody.
<sebb> bye all
<BillA> c-u tomorrow